Hello everyone,
Just found this forum, liked it, joined in and here's my first post. 🙂
We are a family of four, me, wife, our two kids, ages 12 and 2, and often my parents, who usually tag along for any camping trips we take.
We have decided to buy a hybrid trailer, but have never towed a hard side trailer before. We have rented popup campers before.
My Towing Vehicle is a 2005 Pontiac Montana SV6 Extended wheelbase, forward wheel drive 3.67L six cylinder engine. My TV has a Class III hitch with a 2" ball. GVWR is 3500 lbs.
So my question is:
1) In the two Queen bed end to end slide-out floorplan with a 3-piece bathroom, which is the best model out there?
2) Considering my vehicle which has a standard 4-pin connector at the moment, how expensive is it to upgrade to electric brake controllers(which I think become mandatory when moving up to a HTT)
3) What is a weight-distribution hitch? Do I need it?
4) Used or new? Where do I find deals considering I'm in the Toronto area of Canada?
5) What does enclosed winter storage usually cost?
6) Is RV insurance mandatory? and how much is it?
Thanks one and all for any and all help!
Welcome to the forum. I know many of your questions, if not all, could be answered by a few folks here. However, I have a basic question asked out of curiosity: What kind of hybrid TT can you tow with a TV that can pull 3500#?
We have a TrailManor that we pull with a Honda Odyssey and we just about meet the towing limits for the Odyssey (a mini van).
Hope you get the right answers for your decision making and, again, welcome to CanvasCampers!
Welcome to the forum.
I think your biggest hurdle is going to be what your Pontiac can safely tow.
You need to look at the specs for the Montana and figure out what your cargo capacity is as well. With two adults, two children (almost 3 adults and 1 child now), all the gear you would normally take, the trailers tongue weight, full take of gas, etc. it makes it hard to find the right hybrid that will work.
Is there an option for a vehicle change to be able to tow more?
Unfortunately I am not much help in that size hybrid. When we were hybrid shopping we did not really look at the smaller hybrids.
We have 3 kids and went with the 3 bed hybrid.
Good luck in your search.
I would look at buying used, as trailers of any sort loose value fast the first couple of years.. There are a ton of dealers all within a short drive of the GTA so shopping and looking will be no problem, I recommend checking out Niagara Trailers .. very decent good folks who have a wide range of used units.
For your questions ..:
1) In the two Queen bed end to end slide-out floorplan with a 3-piece bathroom, which is the best model out there?
Best floor plan is one that you can invision yourselves being in on a rainy day, is there enough room for everyone to have "space" and room to move about.
2) Considering my vehicle which has a standard 4-pin connector at the moment, how expensive is it to upgrade to electric brake controllers(which I think become mandatory when moving up to a HTT)
Depends on if your van has the factory tow package or not, I would guess that you could get a 7 pin set up and brake controller (get a tekonsha P3 controller, expensive but one of the best available) for about $250 ..
3) What is a weight-distribution hitch? Do I need it?
I would say yes you will need one, a good RV dealer can set you up with the correct sized hitch for the weight of the trailer..
4) Used or new? Where do I find deals considering I'm in the Toronto area of Canada?
kijiji and rvhotline.com best places I know of to look ... also the above mentioned dealer..
I second Kijiji (thats where I bought my used pop-up). Also try http://www.usedtoronto.com (part of usedeverywhere.com), http://www.autotrader.ca even scourer local paper's online classified adds too...
NOW is the time to buy used camper as many ppl want to gt rid of them and not pay for storage, or to take up room in there driveways etc....
Used is better cause you often get extras, issues have been worked out, often not used much, as there was a REASON why selling - too small/big, missing ____ feature, can't get out enough, don't like camping, can't tow etc....
When USED ones cost - 8,000-12,000+ - NEW cost 15,000 to over 20,000+ With a saving of up to or even more of half the cost - can spend more $$$ on gas, camp fees....or just more time off of work!
Just make sure you go over the WHOLE unit and know what to look for issues and ASK questions - if they avoid giving answers to "So what issues you had?" then walk....!
(never buy any trailer online - without seeing it in person)
Jay
[quote author=vipulgshukla link=topic=2020.msg17871#msg17871 date=1351455540]
My Towing Vehicle is a 2005 Pontiac Montana SV6 Extended wheelbase, forward wheel drive 3.67L six cylinder engine. My TV has a Class III hitch with a 2" ball. GVWR is 3500 lbs.
GVWR has to do with the vehicle's gross weight rating, not what it can tow. i also think you have a Class II receiver, since it only has a 4-pin connector.
So my question is:
1) In the two Queen bed end to end slide-out floorplan with a 3-piece bathroom, which is the best model out there?
hybrid beds don't slide-out, they drop down like a truck's tailgate. you don't have a lot of model choices, due to your Pontiac, so you only have the smallest hybrids to choose from.
2) Considering my vehicle which has a standard 4-pin connector at the moment, how expensive is it to upgrade to electric brake controllers(which I think become mandatory when moving up to a HTT)
yes, you have to have a brake controller and 7-pin connector. sounds like you don't have the full factory tow package. is the receiver factory or aftermarket? it will be expensive if you don't have the factory tow package(transmission cooler, pre-wiring for brake controller, class III/IV receiver, 7-pin connector)
3) What is a weight-distribution hitch? Do I need it?
YES! you definitely will need a WDH with sway control.
4) Used or new? Where do I find deals considering I'm in the Toronto area of Canada?
many Canadians near the US border, find they can get a new hybrid, just over the border, for what a used hybrid costs in Canada.
5) What does enclosed winter storage usually cost?
can't answer that
6) Is RV insurance mandatory? and how much is it?
that depends on your Province/national laws
lastly, your Pontiac's tow capacity of 3500lbs., is with only a 150lb. driver in it. so, the weights of any passengers and cargo in it, will reduce the 3500 number.
for example, say Mom weighs 150lbs. Dad and the kids total 325lbs., cargo is 75lbs. and the WDH weighs 100lbs.
now, the Pontiac can only tow 3000lbs., which will be very difficult to find a hybrid that will only weigh 3000lbs. loaded for camping.
only the very smallest hybrids will fit those numbers. plus, the Pontiac has a frontal area limit for towing. all minvans do and i'll bet any hybrid's frontal area will exceed that.
bottom line is that your Pontiac is not a very good tow vehicle, for towing any full-height trailer, especially loaded with a family.
[quote author=bikendan link=topic=2020.msg1#msg1 date=1351527224]
bottom line is that your Pontiac is not a very good tow vehicle, for towing any full-height trailer, especially loaded with a family.
X2
I'd look at a popup if upgrading the tow vehicle is not an option. We tow a 17' hybrid (3500 lb GVWR) with a 4500 lb tow capacity vehicle. There is no way we'd go with a lower capacity TV.
Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2
[quote author=GA Judy link=topic=2020.msg17873#msg17873 date=1351457600]
We have a TrailManor that we pull with a Honda Odyssey and we just about meet the towing limits for the Odyssey (a mini van).
Wow! First reply and I learn about a new type of hybrid. I researched TrailManors in detail. Pricey, but amazing concept! Thanks Judy!
Thanks Bikendan for the detailed reply. I have been studying it in great detail. :reader:
And yes, it is a Class III hitch installed by Hitch City, a reputable hitch specialist in Mississauga, Ontario. No, it is not OEM from Pontiac. I installed it just last year. Yes, I know that a pop up (pup?) is what I should be looking at, but for about the same money and approximately the same weight, if I can get a lower end Hybrid with two Queen bunbeds on the end, then I will prefer the hybrid, for the simple reason of the toilet.
And yes, I am looking at a hybrid close to 2700 lbs or less. The Jayco 17A and 17Z and the Rockwood Roo 17 are the ones that I'm limiting myself to, not dreaming too big. If I did not have the family, I personally prefer the tent on the ground! But thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated. 🙂
Thanks Snowll for the explanation. Makes much sense. Although used ones are available aplenty on kijiji and rvhotline, I am seeing that almost all manufacturers are making major changes in their 2013 models. And the used ones are not that cheap, about 2000 less or so. Considering the strong Canadian dollar and the insane deals expected at the Toronto RV show in January 2013 (incidentally held in Mississauga), I may be better off buying it then. What say, eh?
[quote author=vipulgshukla link=topic=2020.msg18171#msg18171 date=1352169530]
...I am looking at a hybrid close to 2700 lbs or less. The Jayco 17A and 17Z ...
We have the Jayco 17Z, it's advertised weight is 2,785 lbs, but that is NOT the actual weight of the unit. Don't let the numbers fool you. The actual weight of ours is 3,150 lbs (w/AC, awning and oven) :o. This is how they really build them with the awning and AC, and it is tough to find one without the oven.
So really, at the actual trailer weight, you are looking at 350 lbs before you hit both the trailer and tow vehicle limit. This 350 lbs would be for you, your spouse, your kids, and all the stuff you are bringing. That will put you at 100% capacity of your tow vehicle - this is NOT a good idea. At that weight you will probably find yourself replacing a transmission or engine.
[quote author=mtn_bikers link=topic=2020.msg18179#msg18179 date=1352215841]
We have the Jayco 17Z, it's advertised weight is 2,785 lbs, but that is NOT the actual weight of the unit. Don't let the numbers fool you. The actual weight of ours is 3,150 lbs (w/AC, awning and oven) :o. This is how they really build them with the awning and AC, and it is tough to find one without the oven.
So really, at the actual trailer weight, you are looking at 350 lbs before you hit both the trailer and tow vehicle limit. This 350 lbs would be for you, your spouse, your kids, and all the stuff you are bringing. That will put you at 100% capacity of your tow vehicle - this is NOT a good idea. At that weight you will probably find yourself replacing a transmission or engine.
this is typical of so-called "minivan-towable" trailers.
the advertised "dry" weight is not the trailer's actual weight when it arrives from the factory. usually it weighs 300-400lbs. more, since they don't count the weights of "options" that most trailers have.
such as: awning, oven, spare tire, tv, microwave, and so on.
so, these class of trailers have EXTREMELY LOW cargo capacities, to keep it under the magical 3500lbs. GVWR, that nearly all minivans and smaller SUVs have as a towing max.
manufacturers do this a lot to entice owners of these kind of vehicles, to buy a HTT/TT, even though they will soon find out the limitations.
plus, since you added the hitch receiver, this means that the Pontiac didn't come with the factory tow package, which is required to be able to tow the 3500lbs. without the full tow package, i think it is a 1500lbs. tow capacity.
you can't just add a receiver and think that is the same as the factory tow package. you have no added trans cooler, pre-wiring for brake controller, no 7-pin outlet for the Bargman connector and the gearing may be different.
adding the other components of a factory tow package will cost much more than if it had added from the factory.
[quote author=bikendan link=topic=2020.msg18186#msg18186 date=1352223413]
you can't just add a receiver and think that is the same as the factory tow package. you have no added trans cooler, pre-wiring for brake controller, no 7-pin outlet for the Bargman connector and the gearing may be different.
adding the other components of a factory tow package will cost much more than if it had added from the factory.
True - but most of the above can be added. Cars or smaller truck with "tow packages" do not have any special "gearing" from factory (that I have ever heard of). However A few (more every year) mid to larger size truck have special "SETTING" for towing. This include changing transmission SHIFT levels, special deceleration (engine braking!). These "setting" normally exist for all trim levels (regardless of tow option) - but (not sure) may have to be activated or may have the ROM flashed to have it activated. Your local auto dealership can FLASH the ROM with the needed software if needed (For a Fee I am sure!)
The BEST thing is to check the auto manufacturer website for tow capacity and see if the tow option increases it or not. Manually Wiring (aftermarket) for break controllers and wiring trailers was standard in trucks and cars up to a few years ago....still just as easy to do on cars/trucks today.
Transmission coolers can be added to most vehicles. Many already have - but need BIGGER ones. (my Dodge Neon had a stock tyranny cooler - but not good for towing anything but a load of leaves)
Ask a (good) mechanic that is familiar with towing - if the stock cooler needs to be changed out -or if one should be added. (Not suggested to do yourself!) Ask at a local RV/Trailer Dealer that works on tow vehicles what they recommend for a cooler (IE: get a FREE quote first)!
Most important is NOT to exceed the rated towing capacity of the vehicle - including the FULL Propane and WATER in the tanks (if you load it at home) and all extra "stuff" you add to the trailer.
as far as the different gearing, that's why i said "may".
i don't know if they do, since i would never consider towing a full-height trailer, with a unibody people mover with a tow capacity of only 3500lbs.
minivans' strengths, are completely opposite what the strengths are for a good tow vehicle.
i was trying to point out to the OP, that just because he added a receiver, doesn't give him the 3500 towing capacity. that's for a properly equipped(factory tow package) vehicle.
I did detailed research using an online pdf manual for my Pontiac Montana 2005 SV6 Extended wheelbase with sport model with auto-levelling suspension, and was surprised how many of you are confusing between my vehicle's GVWR, GCWR, tongue weight of trailer, dry weight of trailer and the other terms.
My vehicle's GVWR is 3500 lbs (incl driver, passengers AND tongue weight of trailer), my GCWR is 8,500 lbs, with 3,500 also being my max trailer weight.
More importantly, my tongue weight is the limiting factor, which is 350lbs. The manual also states to drive in Gear 3, instead of D (overdrive), and this will reduce the load on my transaxle. Also advises to switch to lower gears while going up or down grades, which I do anyways.
It also states moving and rearranging cargo so the back axle of the minivan is not loaded beyond it's number. NOWHERE, does it mention that this number goes down if I don't have a factory-installed towing package. Yes, it does say that maintenance may increase while towing and gives me detailed numbers and formulae on how to calculate GVWR, GCWR, individual axle weights and wind drag, how to load pillar stickers, and how to weigh the rig on a weighing scale to satisfy myself.
Thanks everyone for making me do my homework! 🙂
Layout Layout Layout. That is the answer to choosing the right popup, TT, HTT, or RV. If it fits into your other limitations of your TV but the layout doesn't work for you and your family....you will not enjoy it as much. I'm not saying you should only look at the layout and exceed the limitations of your TV. I'm saying really think about the layout.
My suggestion since your TV is limited to 3,500#'s is to maybe look into a Class C if you have the room to park it. I had a popup that I towed with a 4cyl tacoma (3,500# towing capacity). My wife wanted a hardsided trailer. We really liked the HTT's and the TT's. We were discussing it and researching it and came to the conclusion that I would need a larger TV. We would probably spend $4,000-5,000 for a trailer and another $4,000-$5,000 for a TV to just sit in the driveway. One day it just hit....a Class C. We found one for $4k and it has the right layout. We have had it out on 2 trips so far and LOVE it.
Matt O 2006 Skyline Nomad 27' travel trailer. Previously owned 1986 Coleman Columbia / 1992 Coleman Senecca / 1989 Born Free Class C RV.
Food for thought here , with the smaller engine vehicles install a tranny cooler. Easy job to do , or have a local garage do it. Just because the tow numbers ad up doesn't mean the tranny will not over heat. This means also just because you're not using over drive option on vehicle you will be ok . My jeep grand cherokee that has a straight 6 cyl. in it also has a dash over heat tranny light. That is standard with the Jeep. But I also put in a tranny cooler too even though I'm just pulling a pup. I live in the mountains of Pa. and there isn't one flat piece of ground any place. Cheap Ins. compared to a $3,000 grand repair bill.....
Now look what I found in the GM websites archive... 🙂
http://archives.media.gm.com/d.....index.html
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